Opinions on breeding a Blue/tan with an Isabella
- Thread starter taylor
- Start date
I love the colors I actually had a litter with both colors. I kept the blue and cream boy and the Isabella and cream girl. I don't know if I would breed them to another blue or Isabella to me that could be asking for trouble. Do you have a reason for breeding those colors together?
Penny
New Member
Any breeder who supports getting dilutes in a litter does not have my support.
Black and tan and choc and tan are perfectly fine. To risk getting dilutes that most likely will have color dilution alopecia that the the dog and their families will have to deal with for the lifetime of the puppy is irresponsible. To charge extra for a 'fancy color' is irresponsible, and does not have the best interest of the puppy in mind.
I've seen many breeders who say their dog does not have alopecia so they breed them looking for dilute puppies. They are fooling themselves and the families they sell to. The alopecia can take as long as 3 years and they can get a lot of litters sold before the dog shows the problem. To say 'dilute to dilute' is somehow asking for trouble is a smoke screen. You've done a puppy and their families no favor by breeding for dilutes at all.
What I want to see in a breeder is that they put their dogs into shows to compete against the best of the best, that they do the health testing that is available to them to do what is possible to remove health problems, (color dilution *is* a health problem) and that color will not be the primary factor when deciding what to breed. I do not support breeders who look to produce dilutes. Period. I will go so far as to say Shame on them.
Black and tan and choc and tan are perfectly fine. To risk getting dilutes that most likely will have color dilution alopecia that the the dog and their families will have to deal with for the lifetime of the puppy is irresponsible. To charge extra for a 'fancy color' is irresponsible, and does not have the best interest of the puppy in mind.
I've seen many breeders who say their dog does not have alopecia so they breed them looking for dilute puppies. They are fooling themselves and the families they sell to. The alopecia can take as long as 3 years and they can get a lot of litters sold before the dog shows the problem. To say 'dilute to dilute' is somehow asking for trouble is a smoke screen. You've done a puppy and their families no favor by breeding for dilutes at all.
What I want to see in a breeder is that they put their dogs into shows to compete against the best of the best, that they do the health testing that is available to them to do what is possible to remove health problems, (color dilution *is* a health problem) and that color will not be the primary factor when deciding what to breed. I do not support breeders who look to produce dilutes. Period. I will go so far as to say Shame on them.
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taylor
New Member
I found some info about genetics on Home - Waggin' Tails Miniature Dachshunds FAQ-Genetics page. Some interesting stuff.
Red + Dilution Gene = Dilute Red (aka American Cream)
Black + Dilution Gene + Dilute Black (aka Blue)
Chocolate + Dilution Gene + Dilute Chocolate (aka Isabella/Fawn)
Lots of interesting stuff on genetics
Red + Dilution Gene = Dilute Red (aka American Cream)
Black + Dilution Gene + Dilute Black (aka Blue)
Chocolate + Dilution Gene + Dilute Chocolate (aka Isabella/Fawn)
Lots of interesting stuff on genetics
Penny
New Member
There is a mistake there in saying red + dilution gene gives you dilute red. That part is correct. The mistake is saying it's American cream.
American cream is a misnomer. That's the name some breeders use when a puppy is born light and turns red by one year old. It's a red dog. It's neither cream nor dilute. It's a red puppy with no shading and should be marked on the papers as red.
The second puppy is light and will red out with age. Because it's so light, some breeders call it American cream. It's red.
The photo below shows a red piebald puppy that has all it's black shading turned to dark grey. The nose is dark grey, the eye liner, etc. There is no black on this dog. This is what a true dilute red looks like. And yes, because the black is diluted to grey, it will have a problem with color dilution alopecia.
Dachshund color genetics gets complicated and there's a ton of misinformation on the net. Hope that straightens out some misconceptions.
American cream is a misnomer. That's the name some breeders use when a puppy is born light and turns red by one year old. It's a red dog. It's neither cream nor dilute. It's a red puppy with no shading and should be marked on the papers as red.
The second puppy is light and will red out with age. Because it's so light, some breeders call it American cream. It's red.
The photo below shows a red piebald puppy that has all it's black shading turned to dark grey. The nose is dark grey, the eye liner, etc. There is no black on this dog. This is what a true dilute red looks like. And yes, because the black is diluted to grey, it will have a problem with color dilution alopecia.
Dachshund color genetics gets complicated and there's a ton of misinformation on the net. Hope that straightens out some misconceptions.
Penny
New Member
Color dilution alopecia..
Treatment..
There is no effective treatment for this disorder. The disease is progressive and incurable, but some palliative measures can be taken early on in the course of the disease.
Hair loss due to shaft fracture can be minimised by avoiding excessive brushing and shampooing. Moisturisers may help make the hair less brittle and gentle bathing with antimicrobial and keratinolytic products can be tailored to the needs of the individual case.
Folliculitis should be treated with systemic antimicrobial therapy.
If scaling is severe, oral vitamin A or synthetic retinoids may help.
A high-quality diet and essential fatty acids might also be beneficial.
Colour Dilution Alopecia - WikiVet
Treatment..
There is no effective treatment for this disorder. The disease is progressive and incurable, but some palliative measures can be taken early on in the course of the disease.
Hair loss due to shaft fracture can be minimised by avoiding excessive brushing and shampooing. Moisturisers may help make the hair less brittle and gentle bathing with antimicrobial and keratinolytic products can be tailored to the needs of the individual case.
Folliculitis should be treated with systemic antimicrobial therapy.
If scaling is severe, oral vitamin A or synthetic retinoids may help.
A high-quality diet and essential fatty acids might also be beneficial.
Colour Dilution Alopecia - WikiVet
There is more risk when breeding dilutes I for one wont breed any dilutes until 3 and I have them checked for everything. Any puppies that I have that are dilute I only sale on spay contracts or I keep. So far my blue male is the fluffiest little guy you will ever see. I will wait until he is older before I even entertain the thought of breeding him. It just depends I guess. I have seen LOTS of bybs advertising puppies that are that color as "rare" or who breed for size and try to sell these puppies as toy size and will only weigh at most 5 pounds when adult. When in reality they took 2 runts and bred them together these dogs in most cases are far from healthy and will lead to very expensive vet bills in the future for the owners. To me it is the same breeders who breed for size or color or both are irresponsible and make it hard for good breeders who get their dogs health tested and try to improve the breed. And quite frankly I would go as far as saying they're undoing all the hardwork good breeders put into the breed and destroying it for the sake of a buck. Sorry it makes me so upset when I see the ads and people buying these puppies for their family and later having to put this same puppy down at the vets when the problem could have been avoided by health testing the parents.
Hey, the puppies are so cute and of which breeds they are?There is a mistake there in saying red + dilution gene gives you dilute red. That part is correct. The mistake is saying it's American cream.
American cream is a misnomer. That's the name some breeders use when a puppy is born light and turns red by one year old. It's a red dog. It's neither cream nor dilute. It's a red puppy with no shading and should be marked on the papers as red.
The second puppy is light and will red out with age. Because it's so light, some breeders call it American cream. It's red.
The photo below shows a red piebald puppy that has all it's black shading turned to dark grey. The nose is dark grey, the eye liner, etc. There is no black on this dog. This is what a true dilute red looks like. And yes, because the black is diluted to grey, it will have a problem with color dilution alopecia.
Dachshund color genetics gets complicated and there's a ton of misinformation on the net. Hope that straightens out some misconceptions.
Penny
New Member
Hi there. They are all dachshunds.
WaterMarked
New Member
dont think its a good idea
i just dont see it being worth the risk really and CDA is incurable.
"Treatment: There is no cure for color dilution alopecia. Treatment is aimed at controlling secondary skin infections and avoidance of harsh grooming products and abrasive brushes which can worsen hair breakage. Mild shampoos containing sulfur and salicylic acid may be helpful in reducing follicular plugging. In some dogs, supplementation with oral melatonin or retinoids can be helpful to stimulate partial hairgrowth."
the main dilutes I know of that have the issues with CDA :
Blue
chocolate
isabella/fawn/pink (in some circles)
isabella i was always under the impression came from Chocolate X Blue and tended to have the higher risk factor. correct me if i am wrong.
i honestly believe part of the reason you dont see them very often at shows is because of that higher risk making it harder to keep them in coat.
"
Thin coats on the dilute colors are not usually due to allergies and the dilutes don't seem to have any more skin problems, with the exception of CDA, than blacks or reds do.
If the coat looks good from 2 or 3 feet away it probably is good but most puppies in dilute colors have decent enough coats the thinning due to CDA takes place over time so a dog who had a decent coat at 10 months might well be bald at 5 years.
The dermatology texts say that over 90% of all blues will at least have thinning hair and many will thin to the point of being bald over most of the body. Fawns seem to have a better chance of retaining their coats with about 75% of the fawns having extensive hair loss due to CDA.
The literature also says that the darker the coat color in a dilute dog (steel blue in blues and carmel in fawns) the better the chance they will retain most to all of their coats. This seems to be the case in the blues and fawns I've known over the years.
There are a few dilute dogs whose coats are fine, who don't lose hair, don't have CDA and never go bald but they are few and far between."
dobermans to me are always a prime example of CDA this is the link to the quoted text : Color Dilution Alopecia - DPCA Breeder/Exhibitor Education
dogs with CDA are relatively healthy except for the hair loss related issues. but its still breeding in a color that presents an issue. at which i would say it wasnt worth it.
i just dont see it being worth the risk really and CDA is incurable.
"Treatment: There is no cure for color dilution alopecia. Treatment is aimed at controlling secondary skin infections and avoidance of harsh grooming products and abrasive brushes which can worsen hair breakage. Mild shampoos containing sulfur and salicylic acid may be helpful in reducing follicular plugging. In some dogs, supplementation with oral melatonin or retinoids can be helpful to stimulate partial hairgrowth."
the main dilutes I know of that have the issues with CDA :
Blue
chocolate
isabella/fawn/pink (in some circles)
isabella i was always under the impression came from Chocolate X Blue and tended to have the higher risk factor. correct me if i am wrong.
i honestly believe part of the reason you dont see them very often at shows is because of that higher risk making it harder to keep them in coat.
"
Thin coats on the dilute colors are not usually due to allergies and the dilutes don't seem to have any more skin problems, with the exception of CDA, than blacks or reds do.
If the coat looks good from 2 or 3 feet away it probably is good but most puppies in dilute colors have decent enough coats the thinning due to CDA takes place over time so a dog who had a decent coat at 10 months might well be bald at 5 years.
The dermatology texts say that over 90% of all blues will at least have thinning hair and many will thin to the point of being bald over most of the body. Fawns seem to have a better chance of retaining their coats with about 75% of the fawns having extensive hair loss due to CDA.
The literature also says that the darker the coat color in a dilute dog (steel blue in blues and carmel in fawns) the better the chance they will retain most to all of their coats. This seems to be the case in the blues and fawns I've known over the years.
There are a few dilute dogs whose coats are fine, who don't lose hair, don't have CDA and never go bald but they are few and far between."
dobermans to me are always a prime example of CDA this is the link to the quoted text : Color Dilution Alopecia - DPCA Breeder/Exhibitor Education
dogs with CDA are relatively healthy except for the hair loss related issues. but its still breeding in a color that presents an issue. at which i would say it wasnt worth it.
Good evening! I'm looking into buying a puppy from a breeder. The litter she showed me has a blue dachshund in it, a light yellow color, and 2 reds. I was wondering if the blue dachshund is a result of bad breeding and if I should be worried that the other puppies would face the same problems with hair in the future?
Penny
New Member
Doxies that are not dilute do not have the coat issues. However, if a breeder wishes to sell dilutes and for more money, I would not support that breeding practice.
If you want to send me her website privately, I wouldn't mind having a look.
There are breeders who do health testing. Does the breeder you are interested in do any health testing? Does she do any showing or take her dogs to field trials and other events? Do the parents of the puppies actually look like dachshunds? In our dachshund meet ups I've seen folks that have dachshunds that really look like dachshund mixes but they paid a good price for them. If the parents are leggy, or are high in the back end, I wouldn't care to buy a puppy from them. I've seen a lot of dachshunds on breeder websites that their back ends seem to be jacked up. Those dogs should not be used for breeding. So there are a few things to consider when looking at a breeder that might be something to check on their websites. Of course we want the dogs to be clean, well cared for, vetted, socialized, etc. but those are things you can't see by looking at a website.
If you want to send me her website privately, I wouldn't mind having a look.
There are breeders who do health testing. Does the breeder you are interested in do any health testing? Does she do any showing or take her dogs to field trials and other events? Do the parents of the puppies actually look like dachshunds? In our dachshund meet ups I've seen folks that have dachshunds that really look like dachshund mixes but they paid a good price for them. If the parents are leggy, or are high in the back end, I wouldn't care to buy a puppy from them. I've seen a lot of dachshunds on breeder websites that their back ends seem to be jacked up. Those dogs should not be used for breeding. So there are a few things to consider when looking at a breeder that might be something to check on their websites. Of course we want the dogs to be clean, well cared for, vetted, socialized, etc. but those are things you can't see by looking at a website.